Notes of the meeting held Tuesday 4 October 2011
1. The Chair introduced the speakers and the order of the meeting and outlined the events which had taken place since the first public meeting, pointing out the RCT’s main justification for the development was to reduce retail leakages from the county. The next stage would be to evaluate the outline planning permission when it and associated documents were available and prepare further detailed submissions.
2. Claire Williams introduced the working group and what had been undertaken to date. She explained that working group composed of people who volunteered from the first meeting had met fortnightly and had undertaken a survey, had consultations with officers from RCT, Mark Jackson a representative of the developers and the AM and had made two written submissions to RCT, Councillors and the Welsh Government. The intention had been to improve the proposal for the benefit of the community as opposed to total opposition which was made difficult by the adoption of the RCT Local Development Plan by the Welsh Government following formal consultation. Three main points had been made in relation to addressing highways issues and reliance on car access; that the development has to be only on the brown field site; and the local community benefits from the value created together with existing retail facilities being supported and sustained.
3. Rachel Saunders presented the results of the survey using a power point slides. To date 170 questionnaires had been returned and these indicated that whilst around 40% could be seen to oppose the development the rest of the respondents ranged across a spectrum from conditional to complete support. The sample was reasonably representative of localities and age groups except for those aged below 20 and 80% mentioned traffic as a concern as well 70% supporting outdoor and open space facilities.
4. Paul Griffiths draw upon the conclusions of the survey to propose that it indicated that it as one position was not clearly emerging from the local community that the best possibility was to work on an agenda that could unite most people in the middle. It was clear from the meetings that RCT shared some of our concerns and there would be scope to improve on the proposal. A major point that had emerged from the discussions so far was the critical importance of a satisfactory highway arrangement being put into place before or at the same time as the development occurred otherwise gridlock could ensue having a knock on effect both to the east west and north of RCT. He said that our understanding now was that the development would take place in two phases with a supermarket, and two departmental stores and this should only take place on the brownfield site. Phase 2 would take place after 2016 depending on new housing growth in RCT. Moreover it was the view of the working group that the development should be less reliant on cars encouraging access on alternatives such as pedestrian, cycle and train. Overall the development should be reduced to four or 5 stores and the brown field site with equal access to the Pontyclun and Talbot Green Centres.
5. Mark Jackson reported on the long history behind the generation of the proposal pointing out that a lot of negotiation had already taken place with RCT. As the developers they were now moving forward following the adoption of the LDP to submitting their outline planning application. It was now expected that this would done the following week. To give a flavour the application would include everything within the land allocated; details on access; section 106 covering community benefits or mitigation. He expected that the real time for consultation would be at least 4 months and possibly.
He expected changes to be made following comments from councillors and the community and that it was not necessarily the case that the rule book would restrict the scope of change. Following the outline submission detailed planning application would be submitted and he expected the first would be for the supermarket around January 2012. His company was still in negotiations with Leekes and which would affect the timing of the next detailed submission. He confirm that phase two would not be start until about 2016. His company aimed to have 70 – 80% of the income agreed before then it may move on to other managers. Within the proposal there was scope for open access and recreational areas.
The meeting opened out to comments from the floor which covered the following points.
o Had RCT required the highways development as a condition as part of their approval? Mark Jackson explained that a £19m flyover was planned at the 4119 / 437 roundabout which would be financed by an RCT tariff on developers in RCT including his company.
'(Questions and answer from Fred Pembridge) To Mark Jackson. He said that there had been on-going discussions with RCTCBC and that a planning application was to be processed in six weeks time. He was asked whether the planning officers were intending to recommend the imposition of a Grampian planning condition. (this was explained by me). This would require the highways works to be completed before the site was brought into use. Including compliance with any other conditions such as 106 agreements. He said he did not know. I then said there had been all these detailed discussions and that this fundamental condition was not discussed?
Mark Jackson made the statement that the A473/A4119 roundabout was broken. In other words that it did not have sufficient capacity to cater for today's traffic. This is evident. I then said that Scarborough Developments had paid for an expert witness to make a case at the Mwyndy Business Park Planning Appeal to deny this to permit the development. That Scarborough had offered £11m to provide for junction improvements but then at the appeal said that they would only pay for the impact the traffic from the development had on the A4119 thereby reneging on previous offers. The impact on the A473 was not even considered. I also said that developer contributions should be paid for according to use i.e. the traffic impact generated and not by some debenture policy.(A Transportation Impact Assessment)'
o Mick Antoniw AM pointed out that the Welsh Government had legal requirements to ensure sustainability and would ensure that RCT complies.
o It was pointed out that if people wanted to seriously shop they would still go to Cardiff and what was really needed in the area was facilities for young people.
o In response to a number of questions about the reason for the development it was pointed out that Tesco at Talbot Green was one of the company’s most profitable shops due to high use resulting in high rents per square metre. The same thinking was influencing this development.
o The extent to which the development could really be considered a new town centre was raised as opposed to an ‘out of town’ retail site. It was generally felt this was a more appropriate description.
o Pressure on the survival of the existing shops and village centres was expressed as a concern and that this should be addressed.
o Profiteering by the developers at the expense of the community was expressed and received considerably sympathy from the meeting.
o It was pointed out that there was an organisation called the ‘Open Spaces Society’ which could be drawn upon to provide advice and support.
o Making sure we spoke to the right people was also considered important, making sure that those in RCT with responsibility for footpaths and the environment were not ignored.
o Support for the current direction and output of the working group was expressed and the difficulties of total opposition at this stage and extent of public support appeared to be recognised.
o Owen Smith MP informed the meeting that he lived locally and his children attended the local school and his family shopped in Pontyclun. He stressed that it was important for RCT to be more strategically interconnected with its proposed shopping developments and to ensure that all were balanced and sustainable. It was also critical that the development worked in a way to help existing shops.
The Chair thanked everyone for coming and for the speakers in providing the information. She said that minutes of the meeting would be produced and would be sent to those on the email list and would be posted on the website. People were invited to join the email list which already had over 100 names to be kept informed and to keep an eye on the website for information. Similarly anyone who is interested was invited to join the working group. The room cost £25 to hire and that sum exactly was collected in small donations.
The next public meeting would take place after the outline planning permission had been submitted and the working group had a little time to consider a draft response.
The meeting finished at 21.00.
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